How to Juggle a 9-5 and Thriving Freelance Side Hustles Without Losing Your Mind with Donna Raphael

Can you run a successful freelance business while working in a corporate 9-5 job?

Yes, IF you can master time management and set clear expectations!

Don't miss this inspiring episode of The Talk Freelance To Me Podcast featuring the multi-talented Donna Raphael. As a musician, technologist, and creative force, Donna shares her secrets to successfully balancing demanding full-time work with thriving freelance side hustles.

This interview will leave you energized to take your freelance work to the next level through Donna's  example of dedication, discipline and delighting clients. Listen now!

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Strategies for managing both a full-time job and freelance clients through effective time management and prioritization
• Tips for treating your freelance work like an organized business from the start with tools, processes, and structure
• Best practices for understanding client needs, expectations and pain points from the very beginning
• And more!

About Donna Raphael

Donna O. Raphael is a multifaceted professional whose expertise spans music production, project management, digital marketing, and web development. She has earned degrees in Recording Arts, Computer Science and Project Management.

Donna's career is distinguished by her adeptness in navigating complex project landscapes in both her full-time roles and freelance endeavors. She works full-time as a product manager and offers music composition services as a freelancer.

Click here to visit Donna's website.

Full show notes here.

Transcript

0:00

If you're a creative, you see that creativity in everything you touch. So if you're a dancer, you see dance. in everything around you. If you're an artist, you see art in everything around you. Same thing with music. I'm a musician. I see music in everything around me. Welcome to Talk Freelance To Me, the podcast for women freelance writers, 1099 independent contractors, and solopreneurs. I'm your host, Ashley Cisneros Mejia. For more than 20 years, I've worked as a journalist and freelance writer. Today, as a mom of three kids, I'm passionate about helping other women leverage their free time. Freedom that freelance offers on top freelance to me. We're all about the business of freelancing. If you want to learn how to monetize your talents, make money on your own terms and design a flexible work life that actually works for you. This show is for you before we get started. Don't forget to follow us on your favorite social media platforms. Review us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. And don't forget to share this episode with a friend. Visit our website at talkfreelancetome. com for free resources. Join our email list to be the first to know about our latest offers. Thanks for tuning in and let's get into the episode. I have been waiting months and months to introduce you to one of my most treasured, beloved friends. And also just an amazing, talented, super talented colleague. The one and only Donna Raphael. Donna, welcome to the show. Hey, pleasure to be here finally. I am so excited. Freelance fam, you may recognize Donna's name because at the end of every podcast in my closing message, I talk about our music. We have original music. It's something that I'm very, very proud of. And Donna is the composer. Of the Talk Freelance To Me podcast music. So it's extra special that she's here.. I call her the Renaissance woman because she can do when I tell you she could do everything. She can do everything. So I'm going to read a little bit. And she's modest too. So I will. Read a little bit from her bio and then we'll get into the conversation. Donna's journey is as rich and vibrant as her heritage from the lush landscapes of the Commonwealth of Dominica to her current life here in Florida. Music has been her lifelong companion, starting with early lessons at the age of five years old. Today, she plays five instruments. and composes music. She has multiple degrees in recording arts, computer science, project management, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some. In addition to music, Donna is a dynamo in project management, digital marketing, and web development. She's a master at excelling a full time job and having multiple creative side hustles. Welcome Donna Raphael to the show. Yes, so like I said, you've said so many things and one of the things we were talking about before we started is your ability to Really manage hard and demanding full time jobs where you are in a position of like leadership and you've had these like side hustles for as long as I've known you and different things. Can you talk about how you've been able to balance this and what motivated you to take that path where you're doing these 2 things? So for me, the biggest thing I've learned having a full time job plus freelancing on the side is time management and discipline and just to expound on that time, the way you spend your time is very important and we only have so much time in a day, right? So prioritizing your day is very, very important. So if I clock into my eight to five, okay, for eight to five, that's my time in my full time job. How I spend the rest of my day after I clock out is up to me. So for me, I'm a very productive person. I'll make sure I have a schedule or a routine. Even after I get done with my day job and that routine could look anything like, okay, from this time to this time, I have dogs. I'll walk my dogs from this time to this time. I'll make sure I have dinner and my stuff prepared for the next day. And then maybe I would schedule like a two or three hour block in the evening before I go to bed to do freelance work. And then that's all I do during that time. I just focus on that. So for me, I've learned that the most important thing to be able to balance both and not be overwhelmed is to just prioritize my day, be disciplined about it, and manage my time well, so I don't sacrifice sleep in the process. And then also I utilize my weekends, right? I will, Monday to Friday, I utilize my weekends. Yes, weekends are for errands, getting caught up with life, but I also use that extra time to work on any freelance projects that I have. And then the other thing is managing client's expectations. Because if they know you have a full time job and they know you're freelancing, they know they're probably not going to get as fast of a turnaround time. So you definitely want to be transparent with them and say, OK, I can do this for you, but these are the times I would work freelance. So based on that, I can probably turn around. You're deliverable by X date and just be realistic about it because you want to be realistic and maybe come in earlier than planned, which makes them happy, but definitely don't over promise. And then they're expecting something from you and then you don't deliver it on time. Cause then that does hurt the relationship as well. And that's something to think about. If you want to keep doing side hustles and keep working with clients is to always manage the expectations. So they're happy and they keep coming back. But yeah, most important thing, time management, discipline, and prioritize your day. I love that. I think that's such good advice. And there's, I have made that mistake where I guess I didn't maybe think to tell the client that I had a full time job like earlier in my career. And then they'd call me. They're, you know, they'd want, they'd think that I'm just at my desk. And so they'd call and, and leave a message and be like, Hey, we, we want, we have some, we want to talk through this, this draft that you sent. And, you know, we're here at the, at our desk, you know, and they'd expect a call and I'm thinking, and I would get the message at the end of the day. And I'd be thinking, Oh, they think this is my full time thing. And so I wasn't, I wasn't remembering, or I wasn't really. I guess maybe thinking about their expectations and communicating that so yeah is one of those things where you like set your set your office hours so if you have a full time job you tell the client that and you tell them my office hours when you can contact me is maybe from six to 8 p. m. In the evenings and on weekends, give them a time to, if you plan to work on the weekends, that way they respect your day job and you're not getting all these requests during the day when you need to be focused on something else, but they, but then you can switch to them in the evening when you switch to that hustle. Right. So it's just being able to separate the two. So you don't get too overwhelmed and just organize and just make sure you're organized. With it. That's so good. So you I'm sure I mean, you've done this a long time. Have there been challenges or, you know, obstacles that you've overcome in this process where you're managing this freelance work and your full time job? And can you share maybe how you solve the problem or overcome these challenges? Yes. So there are some, there were, there were times when my day job became very overwhelming or very demanding where I had to do additional overtime and things like that. And in those times, a lot, if I had a current project going on, I would usually communicate it to the client to let them know, because at that point it slows down, it would slow down my productivity with them. And maybe when I could turn around what it is they were asking me for. Most recently I actually paused freelancing because I actually started a new career at the beginning of this year and I, it had, it took, it had to take me a few months to really get up to speed, get comfortable in it before I could. Pick back up my projects. So the projects I did have, I told those clients that, you know, I wouldn't be able to support. Cause I was doing like web maintenance support and stuff that was monthly and constant with them. So for, for those, I told them what was going on and they said, okay. I told them if they could find someone else in that time who could help and take over. So I made sure they could find someone to transition to before I completely like disconnected., and just told them, you know, like when I'm able to pick up projects again, I'll let you know if at that time you still want me to work on your stuff or you, you want help from, for anything, I'll let you know when I'm available again. But yeah, it really is, it's okay if you need to scale back the projects you take on based on what's going on in your life. As you know, I've had a lot of things happen to me last year that we've spoken about, so it affected my side hustles for a while. But yeah, I think just It's really just knowing what works for you and the good thing is when you have a full time job You can afford to do that because you're still collecting an income and I know some people are not sure how to juggle both But that is possible If you just do what I said, just being able to separate them and just prioritize great I think I've I've had some folks that I know that we know who have freelance and maybe they're scared to release that freelance client, you know, cause they're not sure if the new job is going to work out or, you know, it's hard to, it can be hard to get clients and to get them to trust you and you have that relationship. And so maybe some people might feel like, Oh, well, if I, if I can't figure out how to just kill myself and do both, then they're never going to come back to me. And that's not the case. I love what you mentioned about giving them. Enough time to, to make other plans, make other arrangements is really, really, it's considerate, it's courteous, it's professional, it's, it's really great. And that does give them that chance and they're going to, they, I'm sure they've come back, you know, at other times, I'm sure that that hasn't hurt the relationship in any way, because I think people understand that life is dynamic, that nothing stays the same. We're all changing at all times. Right. I have had some come back. That is true. There are some who found other people that they were happy with, but it's interesting because even though they stayed with those people, they actually gave me referrals. Perfect. So you never, you never really know as long as you don't burn a bridge, there's always that opportunity there. Yes. Yes. I really appreciate that point. And I know you are, you always know about cool tools. You're always telling me about cool tools or hacks or, you know, apps or just things, because you're very techie. What tools and methods have you found to be most effective in helping you keep track of projects and deadlines and things like that? Yeah, so, I treat myself like, so I project manage, right? I do product management. So I treat myself or I behave the same way I would with clients in my real job. Like I, if I have a client, I have my tools. I use, so like I use toggle for time tracking. I used to do is, which is like a checklist of things I need to do. I have gone as far as setting up a sauna with project with like a visual board of my task. With my to do columns, my in progress, my blocked, if I need more information, my done columns, and I shift those tasks over. So toggle for time tracking to do is for checklisting and reminders. Asana for like my full project board, where I would scope the work out. I also use Invoicely, which allows me to keep track of invoicing and billing and things like that. So I pretty much just set up my space the way any project Business would I treat myself as a business, right? So I do the same thing for myself to keep track of everything. That is so good. What you said in that last part about treating yourself like a business, treating the freelance work like a business, I feel like is such a mind shift because sometimes I think, you know, with freelancers, we feel like. Oh, we're just doing that, especially if you have a full time job. And so you're thinking, okay, I'll do this project on the side to pay for something that I want, maybe vacation or to pay down some bills. And so it's. We think of it as a side thing, but what you're saying, what you're encouraging people to do is to really put all those mechanisms, all that organization, all that structure that you would see in a big company, and it can be, you know, cobbled together with different apps, free tools and paid tools, but you're treating it with that same respect. as a business. And that makes a lot of sense. I think that's how we can do this switch from like a hobby type of thing to something that is a freelance business. Exactly. On the side. Exactly. Because a lot of times we get stuck in our hobbies, but really for you to turn your hobby into a paid gig is just a mindset switch. And it's like, stop, you know, you know, the whole starving artists. Yes. Right. So the reason why people call people starving artists is because they're stuck in being the artist and they don't transition into the business mindset. But when you transition into the business mindset, then you have a whole different perspective on how you can take your craft or your skills and monetize it. Right. So it's really just making that shift. And sometimes it's not easy to make it yourself. Sometimes you need the help of mentors. You need the help of. Like courses and trainings and things like that. But if you're determined, you'll find a way. Yes. There's a book that I read years ago called the E myth. And it's a book about this, about, and I want to say the terms that they called it. They were basically saying that as a business person, as a business owner, whether you're freelance or you have a company is that there's three, the technician. Now I might get it wrong. It might, I'll look it up, but it's something like CEO, the technician, and the visionary. And it's like the technician is the artist. It's the person making the music, crocheting the products to put on Etsy or whatever it is. And the CEO is the person running the business aspect, the invoicing, making sure you pay the taxes on time. So you don't get in trouble with IRS. Thinking about pricing thinking about supplies and stuff like that and the visionary is thinking about where we're going like the future and you're right when you are the person who you're it starts off maybe as something just a passion like for me. I loved writing. So it's just something that I would do for free and I thought. Oh, this is something I just, I would do for free, but I realized there's people that they don't like writing and they need help with that. And they're willing to pay someone to help them with that. But if I just stay in this writing part and I'm not marketing myself, then, you know. You don't have a sustainable business. So what you touched on is really, really important. That's great. Earlier, you were talking about managing those expectations with the clients from the beginning, keeping open communication. So when you start a new project with a client, what are the key steps that you take to ensure that you understand their vision and goals and that they understand the, how, the way you work, do you do kickoff meetings or welcome packet, or how do you approach that? Yeah, so it really depends on the client because like with you, I didn't go through the whole process because I already knew you, but, but for someone who's brand new to me, I would usually schedule a, I guess I call it a discovery call where I would touch base with them, get a better feel of what it is they are looking for, try to understand what their goals and objectives are, what They would think is a measure of success for what they're asking for. And just the bottom line, like, what are you trying to achieve out of this? Right. So if it's someone who asks me for an e commerce website, okay. I mean, it's obvious they have something to sell, but then I would probably dig a little bit deeper and find out, okay, what is your product? Where are you at now versus where you would like to be? And then beyond just this, that discovery and understanding what they want, I would probably start asking them. Questions that would help me define requirements for that site. So, for example, what type of features are you looking for? Are you looking for people to buy directly from the site? Or do you have like an external shop you want to link out to? You know, questions like that. How many pages do you want? You want an about us page? You want a contact us page? You want reviews? You don't want reviews? Like, Just getting a sense of, of, of what they're looking for. Can you send me examples of sites that you like so I can understand what it is that they like? Same thing with music. Send me examples of songs that you like, right?, also send me examples of things you don't like so I can know to stay away from that, right? And then, you know, , things like that, that I would ask. There's a lot. I'm just trying to remember some of them off the top of my head, but I do have like a questionnaire that I would send over sometimes, like a brief, and I would ask them to fill it out. For example, do you have any logos? Do you have any photos? Do you have, you know, XYZ? Music is a little bit different because that's a lot more creative, but like what I've done with you, like send me examples of, of, of, Songs or podcast music that you like, let me know what instruments you like, let me know what genre you like, let me know what genre you don't like, let me know what instruments you don't like, you know, so it's like just getting that understanding and that full spectrum of the clients and what they're looking for. I have noticed has allowed the process to move through a lot smoother, and it also limits the amount of edits and revisions that I would get, , and then touch bit touching base with them during the process is also important. So they know what's going on. When to expect certain things. Or if I have a question, I would shoot that to them just to get clarification. I never assume, never assume, well, this is maybe what they want. If you're not sure, ask them, because the worst thing you can do is go through this whole process, create all of that on assumptions you presented and they don't like it, right? So. Yeah, there's so much gems dropped in that little bit that you mentioned. I really, really enjoy that. And I especially like how you described with the technical stuff. It's not like you were asking the client, do you want. I don't know, a parallax website. That's an old term, but like, you're not using your jargon. You're not using terms that, because they don't know, they don't know what kind of, they don't even have that language. What you ask them is, do you want, what do you want to achieve with this? You want, you want customers to be able to come on this website, buy this, and use their credit card. And then you want it, you know what I mean? Like you, you talked about the outcomes and not the features, the technical features, because no one's going to know, know that. And I think that's really good because that's what the clients, they don't really, not a lot of them maybe care. They do care about the process. Some of them, but they just, they're focused on the outcome. They want the outcome to be what they want. I thought that was really, really good. Very cool. Let's see. So you have studied project management, like on an academic. Like level. So more than a lot of us probably listening, can you share maybe three project management tips that have been helpful to you in your work, regardless if you're working on something in your job or a music project or web or something different. So, like I said, one transparency and being realistic on timelines and expectations is very important. How do you manage or mitigate risk is also important. What if the project goes out of scope, out of budget? How do you handle that? Well, one way in the traditional world is to have the clients agree to change requests that they would sign off on, right? Okay, you want this client? Well, if you want this, it's going to affect your bottom line in this way. Do you approve? Do you not approve type of thing? Or, okay, you want this, but then we, we have this slated for this timeline. So then. Now you have to prioritize which one is more important to you because then we have to swap. You cannot get both at the exact same time, right, based on what we have planned. So definitely being able to communicate that to them. And then I think the third one would really just be Just be managing that relationship like be be understanding whenever the client has frustrations I know this saying the client is always right. Sometimes the client is not always right but but Trying to understand where they come from and being able to come to a resolution is the most important thing. Like just, just managing that relationship, you know, so setting expectations, realistic timelines and goals, being able to manage the relationship and being able to mitigate risks, I think are very important in project management. That's great. Especially the part about having to tell the client maybe not so great news, but like what they may not want to hear, because that is something that I have struggled with personally in my freelance business. And even when we had the agency was, you know, you want clients to be happy. We, we all do, we all want our clients to be happy because then they're more likely to come back. They'll give us those referrals. You talked about, it's just a more pleasant experience if somebody's in a good mood and happy, but we can't always sometimes what clients want in terms of like timeline, like they want a website tomorrow and they want their app next week. And that's not realistic and we have to be the bearer of bad news sometimes and it's not really what they want. How do you approach that? How do you approach having those conversations where you have to tell them that maybe what they're asking for is not realistic or it's not possible and you still want to keep the relationship positive? Yeah. What I've noticed is the more I spend growing the relationship and getting to know the client as a person, the more receptive they are to the bad news, because you show interest in themselves. You show interest in their life. You show them that you don't just care about the money that you're going to get from them. You actually care about them and their business. You care about them as a person, you care about their business. If you can somehow translate that through and it gets through to them, there would be a lot less, you know, like, hell, there would be a lot less aggressive with you and a lot less confrontational when you have to give them bad news. And that has worked really well for me. So I would have, I would give an advice and say, if you have a client, spend time building that relationship with them beyond just the work you're doing for them, because they are people. And if you can build that relationship, that, that real client relationship. You know, servant relationship and they understand the value that you bring to what it is that you're offering. They would be a lot more trustworthy in listening to your suggestions, your recommendations, or even your bad news. Because the most important thing is if you're going to a client with bad news, don't just go with bad news, go with bad news. but also go with a solution to that bad news. Give them options on how we can address this so they have a choice, you know, and they, they feel like they're being heard and understood in the process and that you're not just saying, Hey, I can't do that for you. No, I can may not be able to do it this way, but these are some suggestions that I think might work. How do you think? And get their feedback. I love that, especially the suggestions part and the solutions, because you're coming with it. With options, and I think it also like solidifies your role as their consultant as their guidance or their guide rather. And so it's not because I feel like with a lot of creative projects, sometimes. Clients might hire us just to be like these busy bees, like, we're just, you know, creating something and then they're okay. It's very transactional, but what you're talking about is more of like a relationship and more of, you know, you're helping them when you talked about caring about their business, they communicating that so that they know that you're not just seeing it. As when bam, thank you, ma'am. We're done, you know, but you're really seeing like you're invested in their, their success because if they succeed, we succeed. And I think that that is a huge. Again, another shift. And I think in how we position ourselves and how they view us and how they trust us, because that does create trust, right? When someone will be real with you and tell you, sorry, ma'am, that's not, you know, we can't do a website in one 24 hours and it's not going to be a good one and we want you to be successful. But here are some options on, you know, how we can get one quickly. And if you take this element away, you can get it faster. You know, I think that's. Really, really great. Now you do a lot of different work, like we've talked about. Some of your work is very techie. Some of, and then you have this whole creative world. Where do you find inspiration for your projects, specifically your music projects? I get inspiration in a lot of ways. I get inspiration from listening to audio books, from watching movies, from listening to movie song tracks from. Watching shows from listening to other artists, music from my own cultural background and where I'm from in the Caribbean from, yeah, like, is, is. So I'll let, I'll phrase it like this, right? If you're a creative, you see that creativity in everything you touch. So if you're a dancer, you see dance. in everything around you. If you're an artist, you see art in everything around you. Same thing with music. I'm a musician. I see music in everything around me. The way I view things, the way I view situations, the way I view what's happening in my surroundings. I would, I would be walking with my dogs and I would see a squirrel running up a tree and I'm like, Oh, I could probably make a cool little thing that follows his little steps up on the tree. I do have those thoughts. Wow. So It's just, I guess it's more of like a mentality thing and the way I think of things and view things, so I get inspiration, like. All around, all around me. So beautiful. And it's cool that they're from other forums. That it's not just, you get inspiration from music, from other music. But like what you're saying, things that you observe, sounds, feelings, books, like, that's good. That gives us a lot of inspiration. ideas so maybe like writers if you're a writer and you're listening to this and you're looking and you maybe you're struggling with an idea maybe you need to listen to music or watch a movie or you know enjoy something of a different in a different package and that might help you come up with the right words so it does help kill my creative blocks too that's why I do that so yeah That's powerful. And you've done a lot of projects. Is there one piece or one project that was really meaningful to you? Can you tell us maybe one of those and the story behind it? I would probably have to say making the music for your podcast. I mean, I've had a lot of others, , but just the fact that I've known you for so long and we have such a great relationship. Like when you came to ask me to make the music, I'm like, Oh my God. Yeah. Sorry. I think that project was fun for me just because of the relationship I already had with you. Like, I was like all for it. I'm like, yep, I'm gonna do as much as I can to make you as happy as I can. Yes. But again, guess what that comes back to? My relationship, right? Because not, not, The client doesn't just trust you, but then you also, if you're invested in the client and what they do, you're super happy and super excited to work with them. It doesn't feel like a drag. It doesn't feel like a chore, you know, and that's the most important thing is to never treat your work like a chore. Never treat your clients like an obligation because then you're never gonna produce your best work with them. And that's like, yeah, but definitely a podcast. I mean, there are a few others, but I have to say a podcast. And it was so meaningful to me because it's, and that's, again, fascinating is the word I keep using because to take a concept, right, like a podcast, even the idea of a podcast is an abstract thing. You know, it's, it's conversations. There's different conversations there with one goal. You know, we can talk about the audience and it's creative people, freelancers, but to take all that data and figure out how to put it to music. That's, and there's no words and I remember when I, when we met and you were talking to me about Hans Zimmer, I think that's the name of the guy. That's one of my favorite composers. Yes. The only reason I know his name is because of you telling me about him and you were, you would tell me sometimes like, Oh, I get frustrated when I have a composition of people like, okay, that's pretty, but where are the words? And you know, that is the words I'm communicating through music. Thank you. And that it stands on its own and it doesn't need vocals because it's already telling you a story, it's already communicating. And for you to be able to do that for clients, to do that for me with a podcast, that's really amazing. It's almost like magic to be able to, I wouldn't even know where to begin. Make something out of nothing. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. It's just, it's really just using your imagination, but music and anything is like, music is a creative art, right? It's an art form. And it, but at the same time, you do need to practice and develop the skills in order to do that. I know they say there are people who are like music prodigies or things like that, but what we don't see is how much time they spend in the background. Perfecting their craft, like things, a lot of times we see people's successes at the end, but we don't know all what they had to go through to get to that point. That's why it's good not to compare yourself with others either, right? Because you just don't know what that person's journey is. So yes, it may seem like it comes easy to me to take a concept and turn it into something, but guess what? There was a time when I didn't know how to do that, right? I had to, I had to I had to amass the skills and knowledge and practice consistently that would allow me to be able to get to that point, you know, so again, I know we're always focused on our end goals and where we want to be, but a lot of times we don't take time to enjoy the journey and the little wins along the way to where you get in, right. So it's important. There's always a starting point. There's always an end goal. The middle part, that journey you need to enjoy, and you need to not be too hard on yourself about it. Wise. Yeah. That's so true. Even my little girl. So my two, three kids, as you know, two of them are taking keyboard and ukulele lessons. And my daughter is learning how to play like with two hands. And there's sometimes where I'm overhearing her doing her lesson because she does it virtually. And she's like, Oh, that's hard. You know, or just like getting her fingers, you know, understanding, like, how do you make this hand do this and this hand do this? But they're You know, in, you know, aligned to make music. And she's like, that's hard. And then the teacher was like, yeah, that's That's what playing music is like you have to it's not going to become easier until you practice and my daughter. Yeah, she didn't want to practice. She's like, oh, this is not fun. It's like, well, to get to the fun part, you have to put in the work. Right? Right. Yeah, that's amazing. So you are very interesting because you are both analytical and very creative. And there's a lot of people who are lean more one way. They're very analytical, and they're not they don't have that creative. ability, how do you balance these, these, because you, you are a creative, but you also know how to rein in your creativity and achieve a goal on time. And that's hard. Sometimes those are competing things. How have you been able to balance them, especially when they might pull you in opposite directions? So I think the best way for me to describe it is I see the analytical piece as my mind, and I see the creative piece as my heart. Right. So a lot of times one will try to outweigh the other, but if I feel myself going too fine one direction. So like you said, I'm very analytical, so I might get stuck in my thoughts and I'd be, I'll be overthinking overanalyzing, overprocessing and like that can like cause paralysis where I don't take action. Whereas with my heart, I may be, Oh, let's do this. Let's do that. And I don't stop to think about the consequences of the risks. So what I try to do is I try to find a middle ground, right? I'm like, all right, this is what my mind thinks is how I feel. What's this central point that I think might work where. This side is covered and this side is covered. My head and my heart are covered. That's how I approach it. It's worked well for me. There are some times I will admit where one overpowers the other and at those times, at those times, that's when I feel like I'm not myself because when my mind takes over and I overanalyze everything, then I get stuck And I may get a creative block or I may feel paralyzed or I may not actually act on what it is I really wanted to do at that time. When my heart takes over, I get over emotional. I take risks I probably shouldn't have taken. I invest in things I probably shouldn't have, or I buy something I probably didn't need, you know, things like that. So it's just trying to find like that middle ground, that Like that push and pull that I think has helped me a lot to be able to do both and like be, do, do them well. That's so great, Donna. You are so talented. You have such a diverse like experience, like in so many different things. So what projects are you looking forward to? What are you looking forward to achieving in the future? Working on in the future? I know you have your new job, so I know that's taking a lot of your time. Yeah, so. I know I do music as a service right now, which requires me to put in time. What I've been exploring is being able to productize my music. So I've been planning, I mean, it's very early stages, but I've been planning to start my own business. I haven't. Fully registered yet, but the name I came up with is sound soul solutions. So it's blending creativity with like with music. And when I say creativity is, is being able to, to evoke emotions and things through your music, you know, like the Zen part of music creation with the knowledge. So some of the things I would look, I'm looking at doing is maybe creating courses. I actually started writing an ebook that's in progress. And I've actually done a full target audience outline. Like, you know, the whole thing about starting a business, do some market research, build a business plan. So I've done that piece. I've worked on what I would like my products to be subscription based versus one time. So I mapped out that and then what I'm working on right now is to actually produce the artifacts that I mapped out. And I think once I have a bit of them produced, then maybe I can work on building the actual business website because I have an outline of how I want it to be. And then the next part is the marketing and sales part, as you know, which is the, which is the challenging part. My goal, my goal is to transform my music as a service and productize it into tangible products that people can consume, whether it's through my knowledge, whether it's through ebooks, courses, newsletters. Things like that. I'm so excited for you, Donna, and I'm so honored that we're among the first to know about what you're working on. That's super cool. I know you are online and I know people after hearing this episode, they're going to want to connect with you. Where can people find you online? Yeah. So my Instagram is worldinstrumentalsDR. My current website where I do the service work is worldinstrumentals. com. So if you look up World Instrumentals and you look up my name, Donna O'Rafael, you should be able to find me online. Yay! Donna, this has been so much fun. Thank you for being so generous with your advice and really sharing, like, your journey with us. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Please. And with that, we've come to the end of another episode. Please make sure you hit subscribe and give me a five star review on Apple. Check out the show notes and grab my free Niches Get Riches freelance writing worksheet to brainstorm the best niches for your writing business. Until next time, this is Ashley Cisneros Mejia. Don't forget, we all get this one, Don't constrain yourself to a box that you were never meant to fit in. It is your right to profit from your own creative gifts. Our music was composed by Donna Raphael of World Instrumentals. 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