Freelance Breakthroughs: Priya Joi on Science, Identity, and Motherhood

What lessons can a two-decade freelancer in science and health communication offer to the next generation of freelancers?

In this episode we chat with Priya Joi, a distinguished science journalist and global health communications expert, about changes in the freelance marketplace worldwide.

Explore Priya's insights on adapting to changes like automation and AI in publishing, and discover her strategies for maintaining relevance and creativity by diversifying skills and exploring new media. 

We also discuss some of the deeply personal aspects of her work, from her memoir M(other)land'—which explores themes of motherhood, race, and identity—to her transformative experiences reporting from places like Algeria and Cuba, which shaped her views on healthcare and social structures. Listen now!

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How to navigate the challenges and opportunities of freelancing in science journalism
• Strategies for adapting to technological changes, including the impact of AI on content creation
• Insights into balancing professional pursuits with personal responsibilities, such as caregiving
• And more!

About Priya Joi
Priya Joi is a well-respected science journalist with a career spanning 20 years and has worked for organisations including the World Health Organisation (WHO), The Lancet and New Scientist. She reported on the Ebola outbreak in West Africa, the COVID-19 pandemic and has reported from the field on malaria, HIV, and TB. She has freelanced for The Guardian, BBC and Médecins Sans Frontières, and has chaired and spoken at science conferences. Joi has worked to shine a light on issues of race, sexism and discrimination her entire career. 

Connect with Priya on LinkedIn and visit her website.

Full episode show notes here.

Chapters

• 2:09 Meet science journalist Priya Joi
• 3:18 How Priya Joi became interested in science journalism
• 5:42 How local culture has influenced Priya Joi’s reporting
• 8:12 Why Priya Joi became a communications consultant
• 10:56 What it’s like transition from working independently as a freelancer to working within a large organization
• 12:24 Navigating freelance and consultancy boundaries
• 19:55 Balancing motherhood while running a freelance business
• 27:10 Exploring identity and heritage in Priya Joi’s book, M(other)land
• 33:15 Complexities of second-generation immigrant experience
• 39:20 Navigating racial perceptions in science communications
• 42:47 Opportunities and positivity in Science Journalism
• 48:50 Adapting to AI and evolving as Freelancers
• 55:02 Priya Joi’s advice for aspiring Freelance Science Journalists

Transcript

Priya Joi: 0:00

Like AI writing, yes, it can do certain things, but it can only do, What someone asks it to do. It isn't a science writer, it's not going to craft a really human, beautiful feature and maybe in 10 years, AI will be able to do that. I'm very much of the mind that we don't need to borrow trouble. AI doesn't produce beautiful science features. So why are we worrying about it? And if you're losing clients because people are using AI to do certain things, then do something else. It really is about understanding that as freelancers, we have the flexibility to learn different skills, to shift sideways into other things. I think we all need to be prepared to be a bit uncomfortable, but that way lies great growth as well.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 0:49

Welcome to Talk Freelance To Me, the podcast for women freelance writers, 1099 independent contractors, and solopreneurs. I'm your host, Ashley Cisneros Mejia. For more than 20 years, I've worked as a journalist and freelance writer. Today, as a mom of three kids, I'm passionate about helping other women leverage the freedom that freelance offers. On Talk Freelance To Me, we're all about the business of freelancing. If you want to learn how to monetize your talents, make money on your own terms, and design a flexible work life that actually works for you. This show is for you before we get started. Don't forget to follow us on your favorite social media platforms, review us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. And don't forget to share this episode with a friend. Visit our website at talkfreelancetome. com for free resources. Join our email list to be the first to know about our latest offers. Thanks for tuning in and let's get into the episode. I'm so thrilled today to introduce to you someone with really a global perspective on journalism and communications, the lovely Priya Joy. Priya, welcome to the show.

Priya Joi: 2:01

Thank you for having me.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 2:03

I am thrilled that your bio, like I mentioned to you before, was just incredible. Freelance fam, I'm going to read you a little bit from Priya's background so you can get to know her more. Priya Joi is a distinguished science journalist with over two decades of experience in the field. Her career has included positions at prestigious organizations such as New Scientist, The Lancet, and The World Health Organization, along with consulting roles for groups like UNICEF. Priya's expertise has not only shaped her reporting, but also has made her a vital consultant in the global health arena. In March 2023, Priya made her literary debut with a memoir called M. Motherland. or Motherland, published by Penguin. The profound work explores themes of motherhood, race, and identity. As an experienced public speaker, Priya has been featured in numerous scientific and journalism conferences and has appeared on many podcasts. She also serves on boards and Helps other writers through one on one coaching and courses. Priya, you've done so many things. Can you tell me how you initially got into the field of science journalism?

Priya Joi: 3:18

Yeah, so I have always loved science from when I was really young. And it was a no brainer for me. for me to be involved in science in some way. My undergrad degree was in genetics and I automatically thought I should do a PhD or I should do a master's. And then I couldn't really settle on anything that I wanted to do. And I did actually start a master's in neuroscience, which I loved as a subject. But I was really hating the whole process and I, at one point when I was doing my undergrad, one of my final thesis was on these developmental genes in mice and it was such an interesting topic but being in the lab bored me so much because you need a lot of patience to wait for your experiments to run and everything else and I was just kicking my heels, not knowing what to do. And so I went to University College London, which is where I studied, in, in England. And I was in the genetics lab there, I was just doing a bit of extra work and trying to figure out where to go. And a friend of mine handed me a newspaper, because this was quite a long time ago, and everything was on newspapers, and it was an advert for a newspaper. For a master's in science communication. And she said, this sounds exactly like you. You like talking about science, you love writing and you love science, but you don't want to be a scientist. And I thought this was perfect. And so I did, I did the course I did. It was a one year master's and then did a bunch of internships and radio and TV and then writing. And then I dived headfirst into being a science writer and have loved it ever since. That is so fascinating. I love that. And what a good friend that you had to, to think of you to, to pull that out and to see that talent that you had and to share that idea with you. Cause it seems like it set you on this amazing trajectory now that's been very successful. So that's awesome. And I know you're in Barcelona, right? Yes. Yeah. That's

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 5:16

so cool for me being in the United States and not really traveling a lot. I see all of the wonderful things that you've done all over the world. I know that you've done stories in Algeria and Cuba and many countries. Can you share maybe an experience about how being in a local area and being influenced by local culture has impacted some of your reporting or one of the,, many projects that you've worked on?

Priya Joi: 5:42

Yeah, so I think Cuba was very, was very impactful because, so by the time I went to Cuba, it was for a global health conference and I had worked in global health broadly for quite a while, but it's very different when you're sitting in an office in London or Geneva and you're writing about things that happened over there. And I think that's a kind of a sort of hang up of like a colonial way that science is set up anyway. That's often people in quite privileged countries writing about. illnesses and diseases and populations that are somewhere far less developed and that structure still exists. But what happens when scientists or science writers especially stay within those privileged settings, they never get to see how science and health actually impacts people. And so in what I found fascinating in Cuba, this was in 2009, was that there was a huge amount of poverty, there was political issues, but there was a very socialist approach to health and health care. And so people actually did have good health care, even though they didn't have a lot of money or they weren't earning money. Every country is complex, every government is complex., and that I thought was really fascinating. And it's a rare , example of a country that will prioritize health over everything else. And so even people who don't have a lot of money to spend on any extra things in their life, they can still get access to healthcare. And I found that quite profound because most countries, even very wealthy ones, do not prioritize the health of their citizens. So yeah, that was, and it stayed with me for a long time.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 7:24

Gosh, that's fascinating, especially being here in Florida, in our proximity to Cuba, the large heritage, a lot of Cuban Americans live specifically here in Florida. And I think about that, how profound what you're saying, the difference, the juxtaposition, how My state is only 90 miles away and how different right how night and day the country that I live in deals with health or doesn't and then just really off the coast across the water how different how those values are different very interesting and so you've done a lot of the reporting but then you've had all of this consulting work that's been really interesting can you tell me how that happened and maybe a transformative project or initiative that was that stands out to you.

Priya Joi: 8:11

So when I was consulting for World Health Organization, for example, and those, so I shifted a bit from journalism into consultancy about 15 years ago, I would say for a bunch of different reasons., as much as I love journalism to be, Fueling myself solely on journalism is quite hard work, no matter what publication you're writing for. It's also pretty quick turnaround, so you're constantly having to churn out stories. And it's hard work, I think, it's hard work anyway, being a journalist, but it's hard work if you're a freelance journalist, because you're having to pitch so many stories to make up a monthly salary, for example. And I wanted a bit more stability. And I was thinking of having a baby. And so I started then trying to do longer pieces of work. I also wanted to work on longer projects. So for example, working for the UN and then working on maybe a long report that I would work on for two or three months. And so I put out a bunch of feelers to organizations, to Frontières, Doctors Without Borders, and I put out feelers to environmental organizations that I was familiar with, and I just tried to pivot a little bit. I didn't want to move away from journalism, but I did want to move into a different type of freelance work. And so I then built up my portfolio from there. And then I started working with the world health organization, writing bigger reports, editing reports. Sometimes I would go into their headquarters in Geneva to work for a couple of months and I built up slowly the amount of the type of work that I was doing. And then I still had time to report on things if I wanted to, but it meant that I had a bit more of a sustainable freelance career.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 10:02

It's amazing how inspiring to the different ways that you've been able to translate that love of storytelling and questioning, investigating, researching into a new way that's very inspiring, especially We consider the landscape of freelance now, some of the challenges that have arisen. So I love that point. And I imagine it's very different to go from being a freelance journalist where you are yourself. You're a one woman band., and then being a freelance journalist. Implanted or inside of a large when we're talking about you mentioned the UN UNICEF who these are huge organizations with lots of chefs in the kitchen with a lot of a lot at stake. I'm sure high profile projects that you're doing can you talk about some of these maybe challenges that you encountered working in these large organizations and how you overcame them.

Priya Joi: 10:54

Yeah. So I think, yeah, you're right. That is a, that was quite a shift, a sort of gear shift in terms of how I worked and how I thought of myself as a writer, because I was still the same person, really. It's just that when you're, if you're a freelance writer and you're writing for a publication, usually it's just you and your editor and that's it. And there may be a couple of other people involved but it's a very kind of bilateral relationship that you have. Whereas when you work for an organization, you're skating this tricky line between still being a freelancer, but almost getting subsumed as a member of staff, like a temporary member of staff. And that I think is a tricky thing because even if you are treated like a member of staff, you're not in the sense that you don't have pensions or paid holiday or sick leave or anything like that. And it can be a very difficult thing to navigate where Organizations, , will treat often, especially long term consultants, will treat them like their staff, have the same expectations of working on a project as long as it takes, or as late as you need to, or working on the weekends, but they're not being remunerated in the same way. And I, that is something that now when I coach people, it's a point that I really focus on a lot because many freelancers are in that position where They're on, let's say, a six month consultancy and they get absorbed into the team and everyone else treats them as if they are a member of staff. And it's about then remembering that, , as a freelancer, we're our own business. It may be a business of one, but we're still a business., and remembering that we are empowered to make decisions for ourselves and our business. And I think boundaries is really critical there. So for example, even when I was a consultant, I didn't do this at the beginning because I just didn't have experience of doing it. But after a while, I would push back on these requests to work in the evenings or respond to things on the weekend. And I would, if I got a lot of pushback in the other direction, I would politely remind the person that I'm not a member of staff. And so I work as a consultant and these are, the terms and conditions. And I don't like to pull those things out. This is what I'm contractually obliged to do. But if I have to, I do because usually the people, the other people that you're working with are not going to be thinking of your rights as a contractor or a consultant. They, they just want to get the work done. So I do think that's a space where when we're, there are other issues also with being a freelance writer and working with publications in terms of there's a whole host of things that can happen there, but Yeah, working as a consultant I think is a, particularly that it can be quite a gray area, what you're expected to do. So yeah, boundaries are very important there.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 13:53

I love that and I think it resonates a lot with me and other experiences that I've had, that I've been similar. And for me, I found some of the boundaries that I needed to set. Most in which were difficult were with fellow staff or not fellow staff. See there, I'm going, I'm playing into that, right? But other coworkers on a project, they're classified as staff as employees. Whereas I've been independent person and that can be an awkward. It's there, I guess there's a different dynamic when you're setting those boundaries and reminding the supervisor, the manager, the person that hired you. But then other folks that you're working with. Alongside they don't understand. They're not privy to maybe the contract that you signed to the context, to the background, how you were brought in, why you were brought in. And I've had experiences having to navigate that while still needing to wanting and needing to preserve a good working relationship with folks that you have. Have you experienced that? And if so, how have you managed that? Or do you differently with those with. Folks you're working with alongside. Yeah,

Priya Joi: 15:05

and I think probably you're right in some ways. That is a harder line to navigate Because those are probably the people you're working with more on a day to day basis Usually the person who's hired you or supervising you it's unlikely that you're going to be working with them every single day It's going to be other your peers and whether those peers are consultants or whether they're staff Also, it sometimes is the case where other consultants may be happy to work as staff. Maybe they actually want to be staff one day, so they don't care about working on weekends or working at night or whatever it is. But that is not the framework within which we have to work, just because someone else does that. Yeah, I would, when I've encountered those things, I politely remind people that I work up to a certain point in the evening and then I have a daughter. Kids can be great excuses in those situations. I need to be with her. Or it's been a while since I've been asked to look at anything over the weekend. But again, I would just. politely remind people that these are more or less my working hours, and I can be flexible in the occasional moment, but as a rule, I don't work at these times. And yeah, and then it's a question,, of seeing how far that other person or group of people want to push it. And if they do, then I, then I think, , It can be uncomfortable, but you do then have to say, Hey, just to remind you, I'm a consultant. And so these are my ways of work, or these are, this is a context within which I work in this organization. And. Because it is uncomfortable and other people can make you feel like you're not really pulling your weight, but you have two very different contracts. So, it's not an equivalent thing. And people just need to be reminded of that, really.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 16:51

Yeah, absolutely. Especially if they are employees and they haven't learned about our world, being running a freelance business, being an independent consultant. A lot of them, It's almost like that educate there has to be a little bit of education and maybe that's not our place necessarily to be teaching them that But I think that I've had experiences where people have gotten mad at me Or when I've said giving me silent treatment because after I've had to assert very kindly but firmly I think there's a lot of feelings when it comes to work. There's a lot of resentment Or there can be. And so I've definitely felt that friction. That's so interesting. I think that's maybe you should do a whole masterclass on, on that. Cause I think that's really needed. There's a lot of freelancers who might be looking at short term contract roles, such as what you've done. And maybe this is their first time and they don't know how to navigate that. I think that's really interesting.

Priya Joi: 17:45

Yeah. And I think also sometimes it might be jealousy because I do have friends who are., friends or people I know a little bit more acquaintances who work in staff positions and they are, they're really envious of freelancers who they, in their mind, I think that we all not pop at one o'clock, go and have cocktails. I don't really know what they think like freelance life really is, but there's a perception of so much freedom and flexibility. And that kind of annoys me because I think probably you could be freelance as well. No one's forcing you necessarily to be stuff. It is a choice. But also I think because I've now been a freelancer for a really long time, the thing I always urge people to remember is no one is going to advocate for you, for your needs and your, you as an individual or you as a business. Especially you as a business, no one is advocating for you. Maybe they're not even doing that when you're in an organization. If you're staff, there are HR departments, but I, it depends on the organization. I don't always feel that HR departments are as supportive as they could be. They tend to protect the employer more than the employee, right? So this is maybe something everyone needs to do. to think of is in terms of how do you advocate for yourself while also, as you were saying before, preserving that working relationship. But yeah, especially as freelancers, we are one man bands, just one woman bands, just sailing along in our little rafts and we do have to protect our boundaries.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 19:15

Yes. Even more. Yeah, that's so interesting. Very fascinating. So you spoke about your daughter. You spoke about being a mom. Do you have just one child or do you have more?

Priya Joi: 19:25

I do. I've got one kid and then I've got two older step kids. So three. Oh,

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 19:29

beautiful. Yes. You've got your hands full. I've got three kids too. They're young. They're little. How has being a mother becoming a parent influenced your approach to journalism, your approach to these communications consulting opportunities? Because I'm sure companies have tried to recruit you and wanted to have you join the staff. And you mentioned you've done freelance for a long time. Can you talk about those, that connection?

Priya Joi: 19:55

Yeah. So I think like a lot of people, when I had my daughter Lila, I immediately wanted to Move into a working environment or a way of working where I could spend more time with her., and be able to drop her off at school and to pick her up from school and to be with her on the weekends and to be with her when she comes home from school and all of that. And not just to be with her physically, but to be with her mentally as well. Because I do think sometimes we create physical time to be with our kids, but if we're then constantly responding to emails or things, we're not there. Like we're just physically, the shell of our being is there, but our minds aren't there. And kids not only, They're aware of that from quite early on, and now my daughter's old enough, she's nearly ten, where she will articulate that and she'll say, Hey mama, no phones right now. And I sometimes, if it's something that really can't wait, I will ask for two minutes and I go, okay, can I just have 60 seconds? To respond to this and then I go and put my phone somewhere else. But if it's just responding to things, cause so many of us do this on autopilot where we're not even thinking, a notification pops up, we think, oh, let me just quickly respond to it because so many parents, our brains are so full of things, it feels easier to respond in the moment, but I remember reading, I can't remember who this was. Now, but someone said to me that when she's at work, she tries to keep these things very separate. So when she's at work, as much as she can, she really tries not to plan or worry about the home and kids too much, if she can help it. And then when she's with her kids, she really tries to block out work completely. And doing that means that she's better at both things. And that's what I strive for. I don't know that I always achieve that. I Because if I'm either at work or I'm with my kid, at some point there's going to be a crossover where I need to set up a work thing, or while I'm at work I might need to organize her birthday or something. It's not always possible to have complete firewalls between the two, but I think it's good advice to aim for. Yeah, and so in terms of What kind of work I would want to do and working for an organization I think I do think for the most part that no matter how great the organization is no matter how flexible I just think it's impossible. Not impossible. Lots of parents obviously do work as staff, but I think Probably impossible to have as much time with your kids as you may want. And so while she's young, at least, she might turn when she's a teenager, she might not want me to be around a huge amount anyway, but while she's young, I don't really want to be committed to a situation where I can only take time off at certain times and I have to coordinate with other team members or when I can take leave and all of that stuff. Yeah, I very much love the freelance life.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 22:56

I love that too. I resonate with that so much. My, I have a, my daughter just turned 10 last weekend and my two sons, one's who's four and one who just turned seven and the four year old, he is very, and probably because he's so young and he will get onto me. He's very conscious, very about the phone. And he'll say, mama, put the phone down. And I, it's hard. I recently experimented now with, , I removed all my social media apps from my phone and I put them on a specific iPad that I use during my work time and it's helped a lot and it's also made me conscious at night where I am on autopilot like my hands have their own mind and they're going to look for Tick Tock, they're going to look for Instagram and it's not there and it's making me notice. Right? How? Yes, the science of it. That's I don't know if you've done reporting on that, but just how those we know it. We know that these algorithms, these social media platforms, they're designed for that purpose to keep us engaged as much as possible. That's tied to their revenue and how hard it is. It's for us to override that system. So interesting. That's a

Priya Joi: 24:05

good idea. I think I might do that. I have a question though. Can you upload to Instagram stories?

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 24:13

With iPad. Yes. Yes, you can. I, yeah.

Priya Joi: 24:18

That is the only thing that keeps me, that keeps Instagram on my phone. But if I can upload stories, this could be a game changer for me.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 24:27

You might, yeah. I literally, I have a drawer right here. And I keep the iPad there. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Because now the challenge is I will forget to turn on my iPad sometimes. So I had an intern recently and she was doing some automated things for me using a scheduler, but it was the type where she would edit it to send a notification to my device for me to push it through, add some commentary, some music and so on. And then she, I would not have the iPod on because I was learning the new habit and she would say why that thing that I prepared didn't post. And I said, Oh, cause it would. It's supposed to send me a notification, but if I don't turn on the device, so it's so interesting how these social media platforms were created to help us just connect and see classmates and friends and whatnot. And now it's become such a big part of our businesses where., again, how do you keep things in their place? Yeah,

Priya Joi: 25:26

totally. I think I probably, this has really given me food for thought because I have really been struggling with this recently. And yesterday I was talking with my sister about how can we just get off this mindless scrolling, like literally walking from one end of the apartment to the other, as if I'm going to get bored on the way. Why am I doing that? It's insane. But it's yeah, like making a cup of tea or something like always on it. Okay, I'm going to look into how to take how to move where the social media apps live. I think it's a really good idea.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 26:00

Yeah, I will. We could we should check in with each other in a month and see how our progress is to see what we've learned from these experiments. But yeah, I do find that it's interesting because it's one of those things that I think for me, and I know you do, you connect with your community, you connect with students that you coach through social media, so it's necessary. But then how do we keep it from taking over from encroaching on our creative space? That's what I keep trying to do with myself. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't, where I say, okay, if I'm consuming content, I need to also be creating the same amount. I. Do 15 minutes of scrolling. I need to do 15 minutes of creating my own things to share with the world.

Priya Joi: 26:42

That's a good idea, too.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 26:43

It's a battle.

Priya Joi: 26:46

How to avoid social media.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 26:49

Absolutely. Now, I know you have a memoir talking more about parenting, Motherland, and I love that title. Can you tell me more about the book, why you named it that, and especially with the treatment of Motherland with the parentheses? And what your favorite part is, or chapter maybe from the book. Okay,

Priya Joi: 27:09

yeah, so Motherland, so it's a memoir about motherhood and, but also about race and identity because when, so my parents, for those who are listening and can't see me, or even if you can see me, you might not know, my parents are from South India, but I've grown up mostly in the UK, but have spent time across both India and England. So I had a very kind of familiar feeling, a familiar story, I think, to other second generation immigrants where I felt sometimes neither one nor the other. So neither English enough to be British, but not Indian enough to be Indian., and so this feeling of being torn a bit between two countries has been part of my identity as long as I can remember. And then when I became a mother., as maybe other parents will identify with, I, it really makes you look at yourself again and your identity and who you are. It can change who you are dramatically and what you felt was important. And, and then there was also a moment when my daughter was quite young, where she, wasn't sure about the color of her skin, and she seemed to be, seemed to have confusion about how she felt about herself. So that kind of started a journey of me knowing that I needed to teach her much more about her heritage, , but to figure out how, how to do it in a way, because we live in Europe, and we're always going to be living in Europe, with no plans to move to Asia, So how do we marry those two heritages in a way? Like she's still, Europe is a big part of who she is. We live in Spain now, we were in France before. Yeah, so it really was that journey of understanding who I am and then trying to help her but without imposing too much of my own sense of myself on her, because as parents, that's, it can be quite hard to know where the line is without helping, without literally holding them up at the same time. It's almost like when you're teaching your kid to ride a bike, and you're there, but you're not, you're not holding, you need to let go at some point. In terms of my favorite chapter, I think it's the one where I talk about actually having her, as in giving birth to her, where I ended up having an emergency C section, but despite that situation, it was still a really beautiful experience. But then when I became a new mom, there was a lot that I had to understand about how I felt now as a new mother and what it meant to be a mother and a feeling of a connection that I felt with. women and mothers across the world and the different situations in which women give birth, which I was very privileged. I gave birth in a beautiful hospital and, , I had every kind of medicine available to me if I needed it. But as someone who writes about global health and writes often about women and childbirth, I was very conscious of that privilege. And, and even after I had my baby and I needed support with various things, I think I just felt very lucky that I was fortunate enough to be born in the place that I was born, and not everyone is. So, yeah, it's a complicated chapter, but I really like that one.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 30:26

Wow, that's beautiful. I think so many people will connect to that story no matter where they live in the world, right? Because there's so many folks who are from another place and have gotten to wherever they live for a variety of reasons. And I think it's interesting, maybe, Being in the United States, people say that we are a country of immigrants and we come from everywhere. And I think a lot of countries now are like that. But it's interesting for me and you, I think because we do physically, we present that we are from maybe somewhere else because we, you live in Barcelona. I live in United States. My family, my, heritage Mexican American. So people will question that. And I think because we present physically, I think that issue of being from somewhere else is more pronounced with us, where I've met people that will tell me in my neighborhood, even that are Irish, that are Scottish, that I can trace their lineage to England, even to other places. And yet they don't have. What you talked about that sense of otherness, that sense of I'm not from here. I'm not here from here or there. I don't necessarily I've never heard it from from other folks that also have a heritage from another land. It's not as much. Like an issue, even though they may have cultural practices and traditions in their family home that they've grew up with, but that physical element of the packaging that we show up in the world with that we don't control. We just open our eyes and we're here in the world trying to figure things out. It's so interesting. And also because we're looking out, unless I look in the mirror, I'm not. I'm like, Oh, okay. I have brown skin and I have black hair and I have brown eyes and I have certain features that the identity piece is so interesting and that feeling like you mentioned from neither here or there. Not enough. I feel that way every day too. I go, I have friends that are from Mexico and they're like, Oh, don't say you're Mexican because you're not from there. You weren't born there. Your name is Ashley. You speak like an American because you are an American. And then here it's constantly, Oh, where are you from? Where are you from? I'm from here. My parents are from here. My grandparents are from here. And I don't have an exotic story, even though that expectation because of how I present physically, the expectation is that I'm othered, even if I might not feel othered. But the, that feeling of being othered is almost put on me because of those expectations or that interpretation that people have of me. That's so interesting. I cannot wait. I need. I'm going to read your book, , because I want to learn more about that.

Priya Joi: 33:07

Thank you. Yeah, it is an interesting thing, and I think talking about the issue of identity is nuanced and complicated and so emotive, and I do, I have spoken, for example, to, I was at a barbecue yesterday, and I was speaking to people who, there's someone from the Dominican Republic, and he's moved to Brazil. Barcelona recently and he is very proud of his country, but he doesn't feel like he could ever live there. And yet when he's here and then another woman who's Ukrainian and she lives here and now she's been away for a while. And so there are these complicated feelings. In lots of people, I think it's, but I think it's particularly pronounced when you're a second generation immigrant, so second or third, because, so these two people I was speaking to effectively are first generation immigrants, so they have grown up in their homeland and then they've moved. So they may very well have valid feelings of, Oh, now I'm really settled in Spain. So I don't feel super connected to my homeland, but it's still, they still have a place that they can say is their homeland, whereas like I was born in England, but between the ages of like, when, from when I was born to when I was 16, I spent at least half of that time in India, but I wasn't really seen as Indian. But because I've got brown skin and black hair, I wasn't really seen as British, even when I was in England. So I do feel not that there's like a hierarchy of more of complexity. And I don't want to say that other people shouldn't feel like it had complicated feelings, but I do think that when you're second or third generation immigrant, it is different. It is different to another sense of having just moved to another And, and as you say, when you're moving to a country where you are still in the majority in terms of race, there aren't these judgments that come at you and people don't automatically make, if I were white and living in Barcelona, people would, they might speak to me and then hear a British accent and then they might ask me things. But they wouldn't look at me and immediately assume a whole bunch of things about me, which is what happens when, as you say, when the physical presentation of who we are is unchangeable and it comes with us wherever we go. Even when we are not thinking of ourselves, we don't walk around thinking, Oh, I'm a brown person walking around. We're just like, you know what I mean? Wandering around and then You might walk into a space and immediately feel a shift in text. Yes, yes. It certainly happens when you are of a minority race. It doesn't happen. Even if someone who is, there are lots of, for example, British people and Irish people in Barcelona. But if a white British person walks into a space, everyone doesn't turn around to look at them. Look, and, and so it's those nuances and it's not that necessarily that happens every time I walk in somewhere, but it can happen. And it's that feeling, I think, if you don't know when it's going to happen or not, sometimes it can make us hyper vigilant to, Is this the moment where I get, I am made to feel othered or not? Like, you're always, when you've experienced it a few times, you're always a little bit on guard, I think, to, for those experiences. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 36:28

Wow, you've said so much there that I really connect with that. And a word that was popping up as you were speaking was rejection almost. And also this idea of are we being taught? So we're talking about being mothers and raising kids and thinking about how we're going to share our heritage with them and what their heritage is and how their experience is going to be different than ours. And I think It's I do feel like those experiences through those experiences when you talked about entering a room and noticing the shift this being noticed and having to constantly. Explain or even prove or justify or there's always this explanation like we need to come with a laminated card So that way with and just here read the disclaimer when and I feel like when you're a child Again, like you said we're not walking around saying as a brown child It's we're walking around as a child and through that Repeated experience what you're sharing about noticing that shift or having the receiving those questions to me. I do feel that when you talked about being on guard, I definitely feel that and in my country right now, and especially we're in an election year. And we have our former president who's going to be the front runner for the Republican party. There's a lot of race. Gosh, it's such a big, it's always an issue because it's part of the fabric and the history of my country. And I hear a lot of people, why are you on guard? Why are you defensive? Why is it always about race? And it's so interesting. I think. Unfortunately, for some people, like people who present physically differently, it is always an issue because it's always an issue for us, or it's this repeated experience constantly. It is always

Priya Joi: 38:25

that phrase, often.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 38:27

It is, and people don't want to talk about it. They want to, in Kumbaya. We're all the same and just get over it and you keep talking about race and you're you guys are making it an issue and it's not But yet my family my dad's side has been in the united states since 1850 Mexico was acquired was taken in 1845 So five years after this imaginary line That's where our new identity came from and yet constantly. I don't even I can't even tell you where in Mexico my family was from, because on my mom's side, my great grandfather was an orphan, and he came as a child. So that, that connection is lost, but yet, because of the way I present, the constant question is, where are you from? Where are you from?

Priya Joi: 39:17

Like, people,

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 39:19

I'm from here.

Priya Joi: 39:20

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think in terms of being a science writer, I don't quite know how it is in the States, certainly in the UK. I was very much, and still am, in the minority. There are more South Asian writers. There are a few more Black writers, but not many. Really not many. And it does, it can make you, when you're always in the minority, it is about race. It is about how you are made to feel. It is about, like, someone having a question about India and then turning to me and asking me. or wanting my name on a piece or on a project because it's an Indian name. And so it ticks a diversity quota, even though I don't really feel like someone like me should be ticking that because I haven't lived all my life in India. So I don't represent Indian science writers. So until There is no racism or segregation or violence against brown and black people Then it always will be about race in the way that often in spaces where men don't want to talk about feminism or women's rights It is always about feminism Because women are still not paid the same, we still are completely given such a crappy deal with maternity leave. We still experience like jobs being suddenly disappearing when we go on maternity leave. We still aren't given a huge amount of support in child care and all of this stuff. Of course feminism is really relevant. And so the people who are asking those questions usually are not experiencing these issues. And therefore it isn't an issue to them. Yeah. But it is, yeah, a complete kind of blind spot of not realizing why it is. And the older I get, to be honest, the more vocal I become about this because I cannot sit in a room where someone tells me that sexism, misogyny, or racism just isn't a thing anymore.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 41:13

Yeah. I think we, we get to that place, yeah, where we, we're over it or we're, or maybe we, because as full grown women now. Maybe it's safer for us to, I think about that a lot, like in my twenties, having those experiences and realizing from social cues of how it was received, that it wasn't safe. Whether that meant safe for my job safe for professional connections for preserving those relationships that it felt like it wasn't safe to vocalize that truth because of the comfort of people in power and me needing to survive in a capitalistic society. Needing to work needing reference letters recommendation and wanting to feel wanting to be perceived as a team player as happy as professional, all of these words as not difficult, not hysterical, even keeled calm, no matter all the isms that we encounter on a daily basis. So interesting for you. So we could write four books based on our conversations today. Oh, so interesting. So you've been in this space for so long. Um, if we're working as a journalist and also in communications, what trends do you see in the future of science journalism? Um, especially considering this global pandemic that we have just, um, that we're recovering in the process of recovering from.

Priya Joi: 42:47

I feel quite positive, to be honest, about science journalism, science writing. I think there is a real feeling of kind of depression, I don't know, amongst like freelance writers, especially. A lot of sense of, oh, AI is going to take over, or publications aren't paying much anymore, or all of this stuff, and there's a lot of negativity. And I can understand why. The economy is bad, blah, blah, blah. I also think it's worth, though, sometimes those come from emotion rather than necessarily fact. Because if you look at the state of freelancing or even just being a science writer today, Most of us, if we're freelancers, can work from pretty much wherever. We have extraordinary amounts of technology at our hands to subscribe, to transcribe notes, apps that we can use for various things, to make video, audio, like. super easily without tons of skill, we can make long distance phone calls or video calls at no cost. I really think like we live in such an extraordinary age to be a freelancer, a freelancer, any kind of freelancer, but especially a writer. That really, if we're, it's not to put down people who are finding it hard, but if you're finding it hard in your particular groove, then figure out something else you can do. If specialist science magazines are folding or they're just not paying you. You didn't become a freelancer just to work in a specialist science magazine. You could do a whole bunch of things as a science writer. You could become a consultant. You could write reports. You could edit reports. You could go and work on people, organizations, write web copy for them. You could research for podcasts. You could write video scripts. You could write for health apps. There's a whole array of things that people can do. It does require you to lift your head up. over what you normally do and see what else you can do. But if you're a freelancer, you should be doing that anyway. If you just want to do a particular type of work and stick to doing that, you probably should look for a staff job. Yes. Something is not the environment to be in. I don't have any patience also with people who are like, oh, this is so hard and I think Okay, well what can you do about it then? There is so much opportunity. There is money out there. In terms of the economy being bad, it's been bad for 20 years. Like, I don't think we should use that as an excuse. Even though the economy is bad, people still sell designer clothes and designer watches. Yes. Luxury holidays. There is still money out there that people are willing to spend. The trick or the skill that you need to develop is where you find it. And, and I do think, I also do believe that there is still an appetite for really good quality science writing because during the pandemic, there was so much misinformation put out there, there was so much that people felt that they couldn't trust. And some of that also, I think we're very quick to judge people for not believing things, but governments lie routinely to their population. Health organizations sometimes lie. Or they're very unclear when they don't know something. And that's not lying, but that is being incredibly confusing about messaging and communication. And so if, for example, an organization says you don't need to wear a mask, then a month later, you do need to wear a mask. Obviously people are going to think, which is it? And why have you suddenly flip flopped? If you're not explaining these things very well. You can't blame people for not believing you. I think there's a lot of anthropologists that I've been speaking to in this area in terms of behavior in health and science and why do people behave, believe things and why do they go and get vaccines, what convinces them not to take vaccines. There's a lot of work that as science writers we can do to explain these things better, to be that bridge between scientists and health kind of policy makers and a regular person who does respect science, but it's just feeling like there's tons of different messaging coming at them. So I think we have real responsibility and opportunity to be truth tellers in this situation, to support populations, to support people. in really understanding. So yeah, when people feel dispirited about the state of science writing, I just think they need to look. They need to look further than where they have always worked and diversify what they can do because there is a lot of work out there still.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 47:26

I love that and I can't think of two subjects when you think about science and journalism to me, one of the things it represents is truth, facts, objectivity, information, And science, science is about facts. It's about investigations. It's about experimentation. It's about it's not opinion. And those two things. We need more of it. We need more truth. We need more facts. We need more in science. We need more that's been with the misinformation with AI coming. A lot of writers have talked about, Oh, it's going to take our jobs. And a lot of people feel that way. Graphic designers, music producers, voiceover artists. There's tons, even coders, web developers. It's something, it's a tool that can revolutionize all of us in the way that we work. But one of those challenges. Is it's going to, I think, increase the ability to produce misinformation, whether we're talking about deep fake videos, voices so much. So I think the work that you do and your colleagues with science journalism specifically, I don't know if it's ever been needed as much right now. So I think there's, I don't know about demand, but for me, I feel like that skill set is, is so important now.

Priya Joi: 48:50

Totally. And I think I do understand why people worry about these things because there are already so many organizations who are using AI to write a short blog on something or to write a summary of something else. So AI is being used for that. In terms of designers, I know that apps like Canva completely freak them out because my husband's a graphic designer and he sees the things that I produce. Not that I'm a great designer on Canva, but it's made so user friendly. I can't make little social media posts in graphics. But what I can't, but what Canva can't do, it doesn't have, it's still me using it. So I don't have the conceptual ability that he has in terms of communicating a concept or an idea. It can only do what I ask it to do. I know in writing AI, people are always saying, Oh, but it's going to evolve. Okay. You can evolve too. Absolutely. Like AI writing, yes, it can do certain things, but it can only do, What it can do in terms of what someone asks it to do. So if that person is, I don't know, a manager of an organization, the limits to what it could do, because it isn't a science writer, it's not going to craft a beautiful story that has like a really human, let's say, beautiful feature that has like a beautiful human story at the beginning, and then goes into, this is all craft and skill. And maybe in 10 years, AI will be able to do that. I'm very much of the mind that we don't need to borrow trouble. Like we're not at that stage yet. AI doesn't produce beautiful science features. So why are we worrying about it? And if it is, if like you're losing clients because people are using AI to do certain things, then do something else. Like, it really is about understanding that as freelancers, we have the flexibility to learn different skills, to shift sideways into other things. If you're a science writer, then you're a science writer. You don't just have to do one particular kind of thing. I think we all need to be prepared to be a bit uncomfortable, but that way lies great growth as well.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 50:59

I think so. I think so. I think it's going to make even the idea of learning new things, right? Like we were talking about all of these technological advances that have made it easier for us to do business or be freelancers in general, being on zoom right now, making those calls, connecting with people literally by just touching a couple of buttons using WhatsApp can use it too. So it's supposed to be a tool that we could leverage now to quickly learn new skills. If we want to read a manual about something we could use. AI to create summaries and ask it questions and whatnot. And I think to your point with science writers. Yeah, the A. I. Cannot create a beautiful scientific story, and it cannot make the connections from one topic to the other. It can only its output is only determined by whatever the input is in the prompt that people put in, and it only I think was it a November 2021 or I can't remember where it stops in terms of what it's read on the Internet and science. is about discovery. I think your vertical, especially, it cannot go and interview scientists that are experimenting with something right now in a lab and interview them about that. And it doesn't know any of that. I think it's different if we were writing SEO blogs about gardening, that topic may not have come up. Any new changes.

Priya Joi: 52:24

Yeah,

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 52:25

but I think what you guys are doing. Yeah, I think people need to I think it's okay to cry throw a pillow be mad for a day. Yeah, and then the next day evolve like you said.

Priya Joi: 52:37

Exactly. And I think also AI still, and I don't believe that this will ever happen. I could be wrong. Maybe we'll check back in 20 years, but I, you can't have human conversations. The conversation that we just had where we've skipped from so many topics, and it's been about our human experience that is not replicable by AI, no matter how experienced or,, incredible AI becomes, and it will, obviously, it's learning all the time. There's more inputs, there's more nuance and complexity to what it can produce. It's still not a human brain, and you cannot replicate, like, if we had this conversation in six months time, it would be a different conversation, or in a week's time, and I think sometimes we forget how incredible the human brain is, and how complicated, and yeah, I don't think we should worry just yet.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 53:31

I don't either. I don't either. I think what you were talking about that human experience that AI doesn't have that. I can't pull from that because it's not a human and hasn't lived like we have even I'm looking, Google had their big helpful content update for their algorithm. And there's been subsequent updates and a lot of folks in our community, depending on if they're writing for certain verticals or they're writing content. I've talked about their traffic going down and I was looking into that. Yeah. And I was seeing that Google was prioritizing search results from Quora and Reddit. And when you think about that, their forums were real human beings are sharing their experiences, their viewpoints, their information, their lived experiences on certain questions in real time. And that's what Google has. It's almost like what you're saying, like Google is seeing this AI and how it's flooding the internet with more content, more ideas. But then it's saying, no, we're prioritizing. The real experiences of human beings who are living and breathing and we're going to play those higher in the algorithm because we know that's what reality is people so I think it really I'm seeing that I think you're absolutely correct on that so interesting so I know that you run courses for other writers what advice would you give for someone listening to this who's new in their career who wants to be a freelance science journalist what would you tell them when they're just starting out.

Priya Joi: 55:02

I would say be quite bold and courageous in the beginning. Like I think people often shoot quite small when they're starting out and they think, Oh, I can only work with these clients or those clients. I do think what I've learned in all these years is that yes, you do need experience. experience. But I do think people should just try things, especially if you're starting out as a freelancer. Because now the, with the apps and the tools and stuff that we can use, when I was starting out as a freelance writer, I could really only be a writer because to be able to shoot video or produce audio. or record a conversation like this would have been such a technical skill you couldn't have had. Whereas now, I would say, if you are a freelance writer, even if you don't necessarily feel confident, try shooting a little video about your story that you've written., try shooting a little audio because it is those multimedia skills that publications and organizations really prioritize now. So, if you wrote a story, And you made a tiny little video about it, or even just an audio, and posted that on your social media, for example, that's so much more an engaging way for someone who may not have time to read the story. And it just is So yeah, I think I would advise people to just play around with those sorts of things, play around with different ways of telling stories, because as writers we are primarily storytellers. We don't need to get trapped into thinking that all we should be doing is writing. You never know, you might, maybe that's the first medium that you came to and that felt more natural, but you might love doing video. I have experimented, I would not say by any means I'm great at this, but Having now experimented with making video or putting things together, even in something as basic as like an Instagram reel, it forces you to think differently, right? You're thinking visually, you're thinking about how are people going to consume a video as opposed to a 500 piece article, where you have to be a lot punchier and snappier, you have to, yeah, you have to communicate in a different way. So I would say be playful and just have fun with things.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 57:11

I love that. The idea of being playful that definitely feels lighter and less pressure and less like what you were saying, like that, that the freelance community right now, there is a sense of, I don't know if it's a depression, if it's a, if it's anxiety, but yeah, that idea that invitation, it's almost an invitation to be playful in invitation to experiment and to learn. And if we flip. That mindset shift and look at this as an opportunity. I think it just, it changes everything. I think about that. You and I are here talking. You're in another continent. We're separated by a massive ocean and we're speaking because of the power of the internet. And you and I are two Brown women in the Western world. We're mothers in this reality, and we're talking about working for ourselves from our homes or wherever. This is something that our grandmothers, our great grandmothers, would they ever. Even imagine this reality, what these opportunities, and I'm reminded of that constantly. I had a conversation with my aunt, my husband's aunt, and she's from Honduras. And she is an immigrant to this country. And I remember I was talking to her and I was saying, Thea, aunt, what was your dream? What did you want to be when you grew up? And when she laughed at me in terms of, she was like, we didn't get to dream.

Priya Joi: 58:35

Yeah.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 58:36

We didn't have to drink. We were surviving. We just survived, worked to put food on the table for that day. And that was success, and that was a blessing, and now this idea, like you said, me and you can go on Canva, we can make graphics, we can make videos, we can do interviews, we can have a whole business from our smartphone. It's opportunity, and I feel like freelancers, I've, when you're listening out there, I hope you just take that and think about that, that this is opportunity. AI is opportunity. It's not the end of this chapter, no?

Priya Joi: 59:13

No, absolutely. And I think also, like, remembering that as freelancers, the word free is really important. We have, there are no limits on what we can do. We run our businesses. We are business owners. There is literally no limit to what we can do or what skills we can learn or who we can work with, or where we can go. The only limits are ones that we put on ourselves. So if we decide AI is ruining our business, or if we decide there are just no clients out there, those limitations will become reality. So I, yeah, I encourage everyone to just try for a little while, just imagine what you could really do.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 59:55

That's beautiful. So you've done so many wonderful things. So many beautiful projects from books to articles, reports. speaking. What are you looking forward to next? Are you working on a new project that people can look forward to reading or experiencing from you soon?

Priya Joi: 1:00:13

Yes. One of the things I'm really looking forward to launching is an online course for memoir writing. Yeah. And I'm doing a couple of in person events here in Barcelona. And then a few people on Instagram said to me, Oh, I wish it was online because I would love to attend, but obviously they can't fly to Barcelona just for this. And so, yeah, I'm going to launch this soon, in the next couple of months or so. And it's, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it because memoir writing, again, like all writing is storytelling. But this time it's our own story. And I think, For a lot of writers, it's an interesting exercise to turn their perspective onto themselves because we're not used to doing that, especially when we're science writers. We don't ever put ourselves in the story. We don't, we're taught not to do that. Yes. To not put our opinions in and this is all about turning that kind of internal camera onto ourselves and going, who am I? What's my story? What story do I want to tell? So I'm very excited that I'm going to be launching that soon.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 1:01:19

I am so excited for you. As you're talking, my hands are sweaty. I'm feeling a little vulnerable just because you're right. That's such a different. We are used to asking questions to people and pulling out and translating and creating this story from this experience or this news or whatever, but pointing it on ourselves and going. inward. It feels exciting, but also, yeah, vulnerable. That's beautiful. I think that's going to be a great offering. And I love that. I know people are going to listen to this and want to connect with you online. Where can people find you online and connect with you to get to know you more?

Priya Joi: 1:01:58

I'm most active on Instagram and I'm Priya Joy there, Priya. Joy, on LinkedIn as well. And I have a sub stack called The Art of Freelance and I love it. People are really engaged and yeah. So I would love for anyone to come and subscribe. They can subscribe as free or paid. Whatever it is, it would be great to have them in the gang, but yeah.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 1:02:21

Fantastic. I'll be sure to include those links in the show notes. So folks who are listening can definitely check you out and follow you there. Thank you so much, Priya Joi. It has been a joy to share space with you today to get to know you more and to really hear your insights from your amazing career in the freelance journalism and communication space.

Priya Joi: 1:02:42

Thank you so much.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 1:02:45

And with that, we've come to the end of another episode. Please make sure you hit subscribe and give me a 5 star review on Apple. Check out the show notes and grab my free Niches Get Riches freelance writing worksheet to brainstorm the best niches for your writing business. Until next time, this is Ashley Cisneros Mejia. Don't forget, we all get this Don't constrain yourself to a box that you were never meant to fit in. It is your right to profit from your own creative gifts. Our music was composed by Donna Raphael of World Instrumentals. Talk Freelance to Me is a product of Fenix Creative Studio.